I think it's very important to recognize that prohibitions on homosexuality come from a time when life was a lot more precarious and breeding a lot was a matter of survival lest our tribe we wiped out by the other tribe.
When viewed through this lens, Judaic and Christian sexual morality is essentially a way to encourage fidelity to family to keep Fathers involved and to grow the tribe.
In our current society where we are not in any way under threat of extinction in our individual tribes, there is no reason to put this high of a premium on breeding and family formation.
Though something has definitely been lost, that's not on you.
I think this is absolutely right, and it’s another way of saying what I was getting at the article: the Bible just does not speak to committed homosexual relationships. And that’s ok! It’s just a book — a beautiful, complex, magnificent book, but a book nonetheless.
Beautiful post as always. I see this all of the time with those who have deconstructed completely away from Christianity--I don't know which sect you were most influenced by, but I'm assuming it was some kind of Fundamentalist Evangelicalism (blink once for yes, twice for no).
People who leave Christianity overwhelmingly leave on a "baby with the bathwater" scale, which funny enough is how they often come to Christianity and act towards their former beliefs. They are convinced that the version of Christianity they are leaving is 100% a faithful, loving and hopeful vision of what Christianity is, and so figure that if they are not a Christian like these people are Christians then the Bible must be wrong, Christ must not be God--the whole works.
Having spent a considerable amount of time (over a decade) outside of organised Christianity (and honestly thriving out here) I can say that the air is clearer out here than stuffed into little prerequisite boxes of theological snobbery. In that time I've become a theological ally as well as an interpersonal ally. I have written about my philosophical and theological leaving of Christian Sexual Ethics which includes the ban against the LGBTQ+ community. I join many heterosexual Christians doing the theological work, being introduced to it first by Kathy Boldock and her book "Walking the Bridgeless Canyon". While there is much work to be done, I do not support the line that we cannot be allies unless our interpretations of the Bible match up.
The Bible is a rich testimony of the love of God which must be taken along with the testimony of God in Creation and in one another where the Spirit of God dwells and teaches us. The Bible is never wrong, but as Dr Boldock shows us time and again, there have been political and theological alterations to English translations to support this or that theological viewpoint which is why it must be checked against the Spirit of God in us and Creation.
Oh, I love Kathy! I knew her back in the day, but we lost touch.
I have a lot of respect for her work, and the work that you are doing. It is needed, necessary work I support, because (as I said in the piece) I believe it is objectively better for the world for Christians to have an affirming view of homosexuality.
Let me explain what I meant when I said the conservatives have the stronger position. I do not mean to imply that *no* meaningful and compelling Biblical argument can be made for affirming homosexuality. Obviously they can be made — and I was an affirming Christian from 2013 to 2017.
It’s rather that I think the conservatives have the more obvious and easily articulated argument from scripture, and I think this is made obvious by the historic record of Christianity, which has read the Bible in that way for 2000 years.
But this doesn’t bother me much, because I also think the Bible has a more obvious pro-slavery stance as well. Obviously, I disagree with both, and I’m grateful that there are Christians reinterpreting Scripture to make a better world.
Interesting, Ive always struggled somewhat to understand the internal processes of someone who identifies as "gay". Ive always been a "sexuality is a spectrum/choice" and personally repulsed by male bodies to the point of even being uncomfortable if someone is standing "too close" to me (gotten over that one for the most part).
While I have concerns for the hyper promiscuous/ extreme sex lifestyles we hear about the concern is more for its secondary effects on personal health, well being and society. Rampant anonymous sex in the absence of love. Moreso than the fact that its "same-sexual" . I've masturbated, hell i even fucked a hallowed out squash as a horny teenager. So im as guilty of anyone for "puttng my dick in places that arent vaginas".
Notwithstanding, Im not a Christian adherent so these taboos have no hold on me, but I can see why they may have been established (chestertons fence).
Thanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts! A great deal to comment upon.
First: it is totally ok that you don’t find men attractive and that you struggle to understand the internal experience of being gay. I’m occasionally had the same experience with my straight friends, trying to get into their headspace. The most important thing is that we continue to strive for compassion and empathy across difference.
Second: yes, gay male subcultures have a higher level of promiscuity than the straight world. This is not because they are gay, but because they are men. Women tend to act as the limiter on male sexuality. So yes, this does create challenges for gay men (and it has some benefits,) but a righteous path does exist for gay men while also embracing sexual expression. Deep, committed relationships are still available to us.
But, obviously, you recognize this is an insufficient criteria for any substantial ethics.
I will, however, suggesst respectfully that you are deeply mistaken; because male bodies are some of the most beautiful, enticing, truly wonderful things in existence.
I was trying to be cheeky, but yeah, as the other reply says: this is how I feel about women. I can recognize their beauty; but it is completely non-sexual.
Stephen, as a woman of God and follower of Christ and former bisexual, I address you with the love of Christ. I ask you to pour out your sorrows directly to God. That is part of the healing that God provides, just as King David poured out his heart in Psalms, many times. God does not want "slaves", He wants Sons and Daughters, purified by Him and shaped gradually into the likeness of Christ. Is it easy? No way. Is it fun? No. It is simply a necessary element of allowing God into the wounded places of us all. I have PLENTY of those wounds, I assure you, just read any of my own writings!
I support your humanity and your yearnings for love, those are legitimate. Just as I tried to bury my sorrows over men, with women in my youth, I do "get" at least some of the journies of many homosexual men and lesbians. They were harmed and mistreated in childhood and young adulthood. Virtually all my beloved gay men friends of my youth, were mistreated by family and also seduced by older men. I may not know all the wounds, but I do "get it" and only say what Christ said, "Come unto me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and I will give you rest unto your souls." This is Matthew 11:28-29. Let God do the healing, step by step. We are not supposed to carry our wounds, they are much too heavy.
As you have in the past, given me permission, I will continue to keep you on my prayer list, for God's presence over your life. Bless you, Stephen, Wendy
I enjoy reading the Bible, especially the King James Version, whose sagas and prose form so much of our history and literature.
Me too! I love the Bible.
Wow Stephen, this is stirring. So much to chew on. Really well expressed.
Thank you so much, Jeff. I respect your work and I take your praise to heart.
I think it's very important to recognize that prohibitions on homosexuality come from a time when life was a lot more precarious and breeding a lot was a matter of survival lest our tribe we wiped out by the other tribe.
When viewed through this lens, Judaic and Christian sexual morality is essentially a way to encourage fidelity to family to keep Fathers involved and to grow the tribe.
In our current society where we are not in any way under threat of extinction in our individual tribes, there is no reason to put this high of a premium on breeding and family formation.
Though something has definitely been lost, that's not on you.
I think this is absolutely right, and it’s another way of saying what I was getting at the article: the Bible just does not speak to committed homosexual relationships. And that’s ok! It’s just a book — a beautiful, complex, magnificent book, but a book nonetheless.
Beautiful post as always. I see this all of the time with those who have deconstructed completely away from Christianity--I don't know which sect you were most influenced by, but I'm assuming it was some kind of Fundamentalist Evangelicalism (blink once for yes, twice for no).
People who leave Christianity overwhelmingly leave on a "baby with the bathwater" scale, which funny enough is how they often come to Christianity and act towards their former beliefs. They are convinced that the version of Christianity they are leaving is 100% a faithful, loving and hopeful vision of what Christianity is, and so figure that if they are not a Christian like these people are Christians then the Bible must be wrong, Christ must not be God--the whole works.
Having spent a considerable amount of time (over a decade) outside of organised Christianity (and honestly thriving out here) I can say that the air is clearer out here than stuffed into little prerequisite boxes of theological snobbery. In that time I've become a theological ally as well as an interpersonal ally. I have written about my philosophical and theological leaving of Christian Sexual Ethics which includes the ban against the LGBTQ+ community. I join many heterosexual Christians doing the theological work, being introduced to it first by Kathy Boldock and her book "Walking the Bridgeless Canyon". While there is much work to be done, I do not support the line that we cannot be allies unless our interpretations of the Bible match up.
The Bible is a rich testimony of the love of God which must be taken along with the testimony of God in Creation and in one another where the Spirit of God dwells and teaches us. The Bible is never wrong, but as Dr Boldock shows us time and again, there have been political and theological alterations to English translations to support this or that theological viewpoint which is why it must be checked against the Spirit of God in us and Creation.
Oh, I love Kathy! I knew her back in the day, but we lost touch.
I have a lot of respect for her work, and the work that you are doing. It is needed, necessary work I support, because (as I said in the piece) I believe it is objectively better for the world for Christians to have an affirming view of homosexuality.
Let me explain what I meant when I said the conservatives have the stronger position. I do not mean to imply that *no* meaningful and compelling Biblical argument can be made for affirming homosexuality. Obviously they can be made — and I was an affirming Christian from 2013 to 2017.
It’s rather that I think the conservatives have the more obvious and easily articulated argument from scripture, and I think this is made obvious by the historic record of Christianity, which has read the Bible in that way for 2000 years.
But this doesn’t bother me much, because I also think the Bible has a more obvious pro-slavery stance as well. Obviously, I disagree with both, and I’m grateful that there are Christians reinterpreting Scripture to make a better world.
Interesting, Ive always struggled somewhat to understand the internal processes of someone who identifies as "gay". Ive always been a "sexuality is a spectrum/choice" and personally repulsed by male bodies to the point of even being uncomfortable if someone is standing "too close" to me (gotten over that one for the most part).
While I have concerns for the hyper promiscuous/ extreme sex lifestyles we hear about the concern is more for its secondary effects on personal health, well being and society. Rampant anonymous sex in the absence of love. Moreso than the fact that its "same-sexual" . I've masturbated, hell i even fucked a hallowed out squash as a horny teenager. So im as guilty of anyone for "puttng my dick in places that arent vaginas".
Notwithstanding, Im not a Christian adherent so these taboos have no hold on me, but I can see why they may have been established (chestertons fence).
Anyway thanks for sharing your experiences
Thanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts! A great deal to comment upon.
First: it is totally ok that you don’t find men attractive and that you struggle to understand the internal experience of being gay. I’m occasionally had the same experience with my straight friends, trying to get into their headspace. The most important thing is that we continue to strive for compassion and empathy across difference.
Second: yes, gay male subcultures have a higher level of promiscuity than the straight world. This is not because they are gay, but because they are men. Women tend to act as the limiter on male sexuality. So yes, this does create challenges for gay men (and it has some benefits,) but a righteous path does exist for gay men while also embracing sexual expression. Deep, committed relationships are still available to us.
> personally repulsed by male bodies
But, obviously, you recognize this is an insufficient criteria for any substantial ethics.
I will, however, suggesst respectfully that you are deeply mistaken; because male bodies are some of the most beautiful, enticing, truly wonderful things in existence.
Like an aesthetcially pleasing building or interesting piece of technology I can feel the "appreciation" but for me it is simply nonsexual
This is much how I feel about female beauty!
I was trying to be cheeky, but yeah, as the other reply says: this is how I feel about women. I can recognize their beauty; but it is completely non-sexual.
Stephen, as a woman of God and follower of Christ and former bisexual, I address you with the love of Christ. I ask you to pour out your sorrows directly to God. That is part of the healing that God provides, just as King David poured out his heart in Psalms, many times. God does not want "slaves", He wants Sons and Daughters, purified by Him and shaped gradually into the likeness of Christ. Is it easy? No way. Is it fun? No. It is simply a necessary element of allowing God into the wounded places of us all. I have PLENTY of those wounds, I assure you, just read any of my own writings!
I support your humanity and your yearnings for love, those are legitimate. Just as I tried to bury my sorrows over men, with women in my youth, I do "get" at least some of the journies of many homosexual men and lesbians. They were harmed and mistreated in childhood and young adulthood. Virtually all my beloved gay men friends of my youth, were mistreated by family and also seduced by older men. I may not know all the wounds, but I do "get it" and only say what Christ said, "Come unto me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart and I will give you rest unto your souls." This is Matthew 11:28-29. Let God do the healing, step by step. We are not supposed to carry our wounds, they are much too heavy.
As you have in the past, given me permission, I will continue to keep you on my prayer list, for God's presence over your life. Bless you, Stephen, Wendy