One's own personal experience and perception of sin does not ultimately matter in the Christian tradition. Nor does the Bible's "lack of imagination" regarding sin give any sort of legitimate excuse for its indulgence. I am sure that if I looked, and if such people were motivated to spin the tale, I could find people who say:
--That they have been heavy drinkers, have never seriously considered quitting alcohol, and that it has only ever enriched their lives and been of great benefit to them. I have indeed seen a few such people and seen them make claims like the claim that their life would be miserable or that it would not even be worth living if they gave up their alcoholism.
--That they have indulged in fornication and casual sex and that the experiences were nothing but positive and pleasant for all parties involved.
--That they have participated in the production of pornography and that they found the experience nothing but pleasurable and empowering.
--That they have had abortions and that those abortions have literally saved their lives.
And so forth and so on. Does the Bible describe their perspectives in vivid and highly sympathetic detail? No. Should it? If you think so, then it follows that you must reject Christianity, I suppose. Every belief system has tenets that are non-negotiable. Christianity is very clear about this one. The Bible was canonized hundreds of years after the death of Christ--what did all of His followers believe in the intervening centuries? Did they approve of homosexuality, or did they abhor it? What of the millennia since then? Christians have condemned homosexuality as unambiguously sinful, in all places and all times, until extremely recently.
To bring your personal experience of sin to bear and expect it to sway the minds of Christians is like going to the Amish and telling them that you have lived with all the wonders and comforts of modern technology and that nothing bad has happened to you, that they truly have nothing to fear from these things. Even if you were successful in your appeal, and the Amish abandoned their old ways because of your appeal to personal experience, would they even really be Amish anymore after that? No.
>The Bible is on Osiris' scale. On one side, the words and convictions of an ancient religion I no longer believe. On the other, the vast story of life and virtue that is my partnership of a decade. The Bible is found wanting, and until I see any reason to believe the Bible actually speaks meaningfully to the lived, embodied realities of my partnership, not only would it be stupid to exchange one for the other, it would be immoral.<
As an ancient tradition that spans the globe with billions of followers, Christianity carries the weight of an enormous mass of humanity behind it. Personally, I find it impossible to imagine my single life as ever weighing up to the collective knowledge and wisdom that the faith represents. Therefore I choose to submit myself to this tradition. I'm not a homosexual, of course. But I have given up alcohol, casual sex and pornography as a result of my faith. For most of my life I intended to be childless and, while I do not think the reversal of that attitude was entirely due to my commitment to Christianity, I do believe that the faith played a large part. Had I chosen the other path and dedicated myself to atheism, I think there is a high possibility that I would have been childless. I have made the sacrifices that my faith demanded of me.
Everyone is free to choose whether or not they will take that path, of course. I just want to provide here the counter-balance to your image of the Bible resting on a scale against your own personal experience. The breaking point of your perspective with Christianity is that you affirm sin. You do not merely say that the sin had some good parts to it, you say that it is not sin at all. I do think that means you cannot be a Christian, or at the very least, it presents a nigh-insurmountable obstacle to being one. I agree that this reality is very unfortunate. I would prefer that more people were Christians rather than less, obviously. But reality is what it is, regardless of how we feel about it.
The fact that you are now a decade into a homosexual commitment does make you very heavily "locked in," so to speak. To tear yourself away from that now would absolutely feel like destroying your whole life. I would ask if there is any possibility that your life ever could have gone any differently--you probably think not. But for me, I can definitely imagine how my life might have gone, and where I might have ended up, if I chose atheism over Christ.
Hi there! Thanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts. This article was something of a test for my readers, and especially for the Christians: will their hearts be moved by a human story of love and struggle with faith, despite their theological differences? If the answer is no — if they remain unmoved — then they have failed the test.
Your last paragraph there made me think of this passage. I think it speaks to the call of the Gospel and how we must be willing to *die* to ourselves and our passions and desires if we are to follow Him.
Luke 14:25-27
Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
I have known you since 2016, Stephen. You have been with me through the after effects of my disastrous outing and loss of ordination to my own crazy fumbles and foibles in the Queer community.
My own platonic love for you is quite deep.
Reading through your glorious praise of Jonathan and how he has helped you through thick and thin makes me so happy, as should anyone be when they see the pure love between you two.
So I read this beautiful article knowing a portion of what you have gone through (certainly not the whole). We are creatures of not only our genetics, but also of our environment. We have been molded into who we are, for better or for worse. And when we have broken the form for that mold, something shatters in ourselves as well. We are no longer the same, as is the world we live in.
So I see and acknowledge your just critique of the Bible. The mythological world it presents does not reflect the world we are in now. That mold has broken again and we must pick up the pieces once more.
I am still a Christian, much to the objections and bewilderment of so many of my acquaintances. If my faith were solely based on the Bible, I would agree with you wholeheartedly and say that I am no longer a Christian because of all those reasons you so eloquently wrote in this article.
However, my faith is not just based on the Bible. It is also based on my family (as much as we disagree with each other). It is based on my new Church I joined in 2016 and became a member in 2017. My faith is also based on science, the writings of so many wonderful authors, living and dead. My faith is grounded in my children, who continue to inspire me and give me hope. My faith is tempered by my boyfriend, who reminds me to keep certain things in perspective and to know when to leave things behind.
My faith is also ironically grounded in doubt. That has been my biggest struggle, but also my most valuable tool.
All this to say, yes, the Bible gets so much wrong, but that is not all that Christianity is.
Thanks so much for your friendship and love throughout these crazy years.
Thank you so much, Timothy, and thank you so much for being on this journey with me. If there’s a Christianity I wish more people embodied, it would be yours.
I’m an academic-y type, who is a progressive in most areas of my life, but absolutely a Christian. Like you, I do believe that the most faithful reading of the Bible is exactly as you named- even though thinking this goes against so many other aspects of my identity.
However, I am heterosexual.
I have had to grapple with this issue as I have sensed a call to ministry. I used to think the most charitable thing Christians could do (and should do) was to not really have an opinion. But, that doesn’t exactly work for leaders.
I personally feel the Holy Spirit has guided me into more peace on this issue. I still believe that individual Christians are not called usually to speak words of rebuke or exhortation to each other on this very sensitive, intimate, vulnerable issue.
And yet I have come more to believe that the Spirit will guide those in question, as the Spirit needs to. I believe that fasting is a mysteriously powerful tool when grappling with something big- I would encourage those personally affected by an orthodox Christian theology of sexuality, to fast if you have never tried. I won’t specify how long or how- the Spirit can help you with that too.
Ultimately, it seems that the majority of passionate lovers of the Holy Spirit who have sought the Lord‘s heart and fasted on this issue have come to a quite uncomfortable place and yes, I know of multiple couple who have forsaken each other with tears.
And yet- I also know of a minority of gay Christians who seem to have equal devotion and have sought His heart, who God has seemingly not called to make this immense sacrifice.
So as a leader while I now do know where I stand, I also think it is important to make room for the fact that God is mysterious and even in times of Scripture, was always shaking things up. My wisdom and revelation on this earth is limited.
In closing- I pray a river of blessings over your life.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read my article and leave a thoughtful reply. I am no longer a believer, so this is no longer my wheelhouse, but I am grateful that there are people within the faith, like yourself, who are wrestling enormously with this issue, even when I disagree with the outcome. I'm happy to cheer along from the margins.
Brother, this is a beautiful and thought-provoking piece. Thank you for sharing.
But I disagree with you about Biblical interpretation. Gregory of Nyssa argues that sexual difference is not essential to human nature itself. (In early Jewish and Rabbinic commentaries, it's thought that Adam was made androgynous.) In the Greek tradition, the separation of man/woman only comes later, as a concession to the fall into mortality and corporeality. Male Christians are taught to think of themselves as the "bride of Christ" and women are asked to put on Christ and become "sons of God".
In the ancient Jewish context, questions and prohibitions about sexuality weren't really about (dis)pleasing a deity but regulating people in a society where women were literally property and slaves were used for sex. So in one sense, you're right: those condemnations don't really apply to you because you don't live in that context.
What is/isn't considered a sin has almost always been historically and socially contingent. Biblical literature is so rich and varied it cannot offer a single idea of the "good" life. Augustine himself says: when in doubt, err on the side of love.
William, thank you so much for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. I also appreciate your measured disagreement with my interpretation of the Biblical texts. For what it's worth, I think your interpretation is objectively better for the world.
Yes, but keep in mind that I’m also not a Christian, so I’m not thinking about this as a Christian would.
I clarified what I meant in a later article called “Testing the Christians.” In essence, while I think compelling affirming arguments can be made, I also just think that they are harder to communicate, harder to understand, and harder to formulate than the alternatives. That doesn’t make them wrong, it just makes them (IMO) weaker. I think that the traditional view will just always be right there on the surface to be plucked. The affirming view takes more work.
Hi Stephen. I've just discovered your stack. Thank you for writing this. I was raised very Christian (evangelical) and I left that version of the faith in large part due to its hatefullness, which to me stood in sharp contrast to the love that was also preached. In my mind back then (and now) you cannot have radical love as Jesus taught, and then have nasty, judgemental hate. I spent many years being 'agnostic' and 'spiritual'. I have since returned to being a 'christian', and by that I mean I embrace the teachings of Jesus and his message of faith, hope and love. I don't think Christianity is a 'fact', I view it as a way to connect with the divine and have guiding principles in my life. I do not believe one can claim to be a christian and then condemn any other person. You can certainly have your own opinions and morality but one must understand that is coming from you or other humans, not from God. God is love and anything less than radical, unconditional love is not of God.
You know, even though it’s actually spoken by the “sodomites”, I always found their words in Gen 19:9 to be quite a fitting for this conversation and people using the Bible to justify homophobia, in a modern context:
“This man came here as a foreigner, and *now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them*.” (Gen. 19:9)
Thanks for the great essay! I always love seeing constructive/synthesizing interpretations of how to deal with faith/tradition and societal/cultural change!
I would listen to your heart. Ancient words can contain great wisdom, we can learn from the past instead of making the same mistakes but they aren't alive, here and now.
This was extraordinary. I'm unbelievably sorry for the pain and the trials that contributed to it (understatement of the century, I'm sure), but this entire piece is indomitable in its clarity, forcefulness, empathy, and moral necessity. I'm so grateful to have stumbled across your writing and your voice.
It seems likely that you may already be familiar most/all of the points I make here, but: here's a video of a talk I gave at the parish I served until earlier this year in honor of Pride Month: "What does the Bible Say about LGBTQ People?" I address the 6 common passages that are used by anti-LGBTQ-equality Christians but suggest that none of them warrants such a position. Of course, that doesn't address your broader point above about Scripture's silence on homosexual romance, but I'd still be curious as to what you think.
Stephen. Amazing, though-provoking rawness. I’m glad you’re still writing since Gaychristian.com when you and I first met. I’m also glad you’re disciplining yourself to write in the midst of chaos from Helene.
One's own personal experience and perception of sin does not ultimately matter in the Christian tradition. Nor does the Bible's "lack of imagination" regarding sin give any sort of legitimate excuse for its indulgence. I am sure that if I looked, and if such people were motivated to spin the tale, I could find people who say:
--That they have been heavy drinkers, have never seriously considered quitting alcohol, and that it has only ever enriched their lives and been of great benefit to them. I have indeed seen a few such people and seen them make claims like the claim that their life would be miserable or that it would not even be worth living if they gave up their alcoholism.
--That they have indulged in fornication and casual sex and that the experiences were nothing but positive and pleasant for all parties involved.
--That they have participated in the production of pornography and that they found the experience nothing but pleasurable and empowering.
--That they have had abortions and that those abortions have literally saved their lives.
And so forth and so on. Does the Bible describe their perspectives in vivid and highly sympathetic detail? No. Should it? If you think so, then it follows that you must reject Christianity, I suppose. Every belief system has tenets that are non-negotiable. Christianity is very clear about this one. The Bible was canonized hundreds of years after the death of Christ--what did all of His followers believe in the intervening centuries? Did they approve of homosexuality, or did they abhor it? What of the millennia since then? Christians have condemned homosexuality as unambiguously sinful, in all places and all times, until extremely recently.
To bring your personal experience of sin to bear and expect it to sway the minds of Christians is like going to the Amish and telling them that you have lived with all the wonders and comforts of modern technology and that nothing bad has happened to you, that they truly have nothing to fear from these things. Even if you were successful in your appeal, and the Amish abandoned their old ways because of your appeal to personal experience, would they even really be Amish anymore after that? No.
>The Bible is on Osiris' scale. On one side, the words and convictions of an ancient religion I no longer believe. On the other, the vast story of life and virtue that is my partnership of a decade. The Bible is found wanting, and until I see any reason to believe the Bible actually speaks meaningfully to the lived, embodied realities of my partnership, not only would it be stupid to exchange one for the other, it would be immoral.<
As an ancient tradition that spans the globe with billions of followers, Christianity carries the weight of an enormous mass of humanity behind it. Personally, I find it impossible to imagine my single life as ever weighing up to the collective knowledge and wisdom that the faith represents. Therefore I choose to submit myself to this tradition. I'm not a homosexual, of course. But I have given up alcohol, casual sex and pornography as a result of my faith. For most of my life I intended to be childless and, while I do not think the reversal of that attitude was entirely due to my commitment to Christianity, I do believe that the faith played a large part. Had I chosen the other path and dedicated myself to atheism, I think there is a high possibility that I would have been childless. I have made the sacrifices that my faith demanded of me.
Everyone is free to choose whether or not they will take that path, of course. I just want to provide here the counter-balance to your image of the Bible resting on a scale against your own personal experience. The breaking point of your perspective with Christianity is that you affirm sin. You do not merely say that the sin had some good parts to it, you say that it is not sin at all. I do think that means you cannot be a Christian, or at the very least, it presents a nigh-insurmountable obstacle to being one. I agree that this reality is very unfortunate. I would prefer that more people were Christians rather than less, obviously. But reality is what it is, regardless of how we feel about it.
The fact that you are now a decade into a homosexual commitment does make you very heavily "locked in," so to speak. To tear yourself away from that now would absolutely feel like destroying your whole life. I would ask if there is any possibility that your life ever could have gone any differently--you probably think not. But for me, I can definitely imagine how my life might have gone, and where I might have ended up, if I chose atheism over Christ.
Hi there! Thanks so much for reading and sharing your thoughts. This article was something of a test for my readers, and especially for the Christians: will their hearts be moved by a human story of love and struggle with faith, despite their theological differences? If the answer is no — if they remain unmoved — then they have failed the test.
Moving! I have more to say, but it’s too much to write 💙
You wrote nothing on love, you wrote a fantasy that is condemned by Christ as anti-love.
Your last paragraph there made me think of this passage. I think it speaks to the call of the Gospel and how we must be willing to *die* to ourselves and our passions and desires if we are to follow Him.
Luke 14:25-27
Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Pretty grotesque doctrine
Idk I think poopoo butt rape syphilis anal sodomy is pretty grotesque as well
I have known you since 2016, Stephen. You have been with me through the after effects of my disastrous outing and loss of ordination to my own crazy fumbles and foibles in the Queer community.
My own platonic love for you is quite deep.
Reading through your glorious praise of Jonathan and how he has helped you through thick and thin makes me so happy, as should anyone be when they see the pure love between you two.
So I read this beautiful article knowing a portion of what you have gone through (certainly not the whole). We are creatures of not only our genetics, but also of our environment. We have been molded into who we are, for better or for worse. And when we have broken the form for that mold, something shatters in ourselves as well. We are no longer the same, as is the world we live in.
So I see and acknowledge your just critique of the Bible. The mythological world it presents does not reflect the world we are in now. That mold has broken again and we must pick up the pieces once more.
I am still a Christian, much to the objections and bewilderment of so many of my acquaintances. If my faith were solely based on the Bible, I would agree with you wholeheartedly and say that I am no longer a Christian because of all those reasons you so eloquently wrote in this article.
However, my faith is not just based on the Bible. It is also based on my family (as much as we disagree with each other). It is based on my new Church I joined in 2016 and became a member in 2017. My faith is also based on science, the writings of so many wonderful authors, living and dead. My faith is grounded in my children, who continue to inspire me and give me hope. My faith is tempered by my boyfriend, who reminds me to keep certain things in perspective and to know when to leave things behind.
My faith is also ironically grounded in doubt. That has been my biggest struggle, but also my most valuable tool.
All this to say, yes, the Bible gets so much wrong, but that is not all that Christianity is.
Thanks so much for your friendship and love throughout these crazy years.
Thank you so much, Timothy, and thank you so much for being on this journey with me. If there’s a Christianity I wish more people embodied, it would be yours.
I’m an academic-y type, who is a progressive in most areas of my life, but absolutely a Christian. Like you, I do believe that the most faithful reading of the Bible is exactly as you named- even though thinking this goes against so many other aspects of my identity.
However, I am heterosexual.
I have had to grapple with this issue as I have sensed a call to ministry. I used to think the most charitable thing Christians could do (and should do) was to not really have an opinion. But, that doesn’t exactly work for leaders.
I personally feel the Holy Spirit has guided me into more peace on this issue. I still believe that individual Christians are not called usually to speak words of rebuke or exhortation to each other on this very sensitive, intimate, vulnerable issue.
And yet I have come more to believe that the Spirit will guide those in question, as the Spirit needs to. I believe that fasting is a mysteriously powerful tool when grappling with something big- I would encourage those personally affected by an orthodox Christian theology of sexuality, to fast if you have never tried. I won’t specify how long or how- the Spirit can help you with that too.
Ultimately, it seems that the majority of passionate lovers of the Holy Spirit who have sought the Lord‘s heart and fasted on this issue have come to a quite uncomfortable place and yes, I know of multiple couple who have forsaken each other with tears.
And yet- I also know of a minority of gay Christians who seem to have equal devotion and have sought His heart, who God has seemingly not called to make this immense sacrifice.
So as a leader while I now do know where I stand, I also think it is important to make room for the fact that God is mysterious and even in times of Scripture, was always shaking things up. My wisdom and revelation on this earth is limited.
In closing- I pray a river of blessings over your life.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read my article and leave a thoughtful reply. I am no longer a believer, so this is no longer my wheelhouse, but I am grateful that there are people within the faith, like yourself, who are wrestling enormously with this issue, even when I disagree with the outcome. I'm happy to cheer along from the margins.
Brother, this is a beautiful and thought-provoking piece. Thank you for sharing.
But I disagree with you about Biblical interpretation. Gregory of Nyssa argues that sexual difference is not essential to human nature itself. (In early Jewish and Rabbinic commentaries, it's thought that Adam was made androgynous.) In the Greek tradition, the separation of man/woman only comes later, as a concession to the fall into mortality and corporeality. Male Christians are taught to think of themselves as the "bride of Christ" and women are asked to put on Christ and become "sons of God".
In the ancient Jewish context, questions and prohibitions about sexuality weren't really about (dis)pleasing a deity but regulating people in a society where women were literally property and slaves were used for sex. So in one sense, you're right: those condemnations don't really apply to you because you don't live in that context.
What is/isn't considered a sin has almost always been historically and socially contingent. Biblical literature is so rich and varied it cannot offer a single idea of the "good" life. Augustine himself says: when in doubt, err on the side of love.
William, thank you so much for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. I also appreciate your measured disagreement with my interpretation of the Biblical texts. For what it's worth, I think your interpretation is objectively better for the world.
Do you think that would be a good reason for adopting such interpretations?
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" "Every good tree bears good fruit".
Yes, but keep in mind that I’m also not a Christian, so I’m not thinking about this as a Christian would.
I clarified what I meant in a later article called “Testing the Christians.” In essence, while I think compelling affirming arguments can be made, I also just think that they are harder to communicate, harder to understand, and harder to formulate than the alternatives. That doesn’t make them wrong, it just makes them (IMO) weaker. I think that the traditional view will just always be right there on the surface to be plucked. The affirming view takes more work.
Hi Stephen. I've just discovered your stack. Thank you for writing this. I was raised very Christian (evangelical) and I left that version of the faith in large part due to its hatefullness, which to me stood in sharp contrast to the love that was also preached. In my mind back then (and now) you cannot have radical love as Jesus taught, and then have nasty, judgemental hate. I spent many years being 'agnostic' and 'spiritual'. I have since returned to being a 'christian', and by that I mean I embrace the teachings of Jesus and his message of faith, hope and love. I don't think Christianity is a 'fact', I view it as a way to connect with the divine and have guiding principles in my life. I do not believe one can claim to be a christian and then condemn any other person. You can certainly have your own opinions and morality but one must understand that is coming from you or other humans, not from God. God is love and anything less than radical, unconditional love is not of God.
Thank you so much for sharing. I wish more Christians had your vision of Christianity.
You know, even though it’s actually spoken by the “sodomites”, I always found their words in Gen 19:9 to be quite a fitting for this conversation and people using the Bible to justify homophobia, in a modern context:
“This man came here as a foreigner, and *now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them*.” (Gen. 19:9)
Thank you, this comment is 🔥
Thanks for the great essay! I always love seeing constructive/synthesizing interpretations of how to deal with faith/tradition and societal/cultural change!
I would listen to your heart. Ancient words can contain great wisdom, we can learn from the past instead of making the same mistakes but they aren't alive, here and now.
Thank you ❤️
I enjoy reading the Bible, especially the King James Version, whose sagas and prose form so much of our history and literature.
Me too! I love the Bible.
Thanks for that great explanation.
Thank you for reading ❤️
Oh this should be interesting. I’ll read soon lol
Hope you enjoy!
This was extraordinary. I'm unbelievably sorry for the pain and the trials that contributed to it (understatement of the century, I'm sure), but this entire piece is indomitable in its clarity, forcefulness, empathy, and moral necessity. I'm so grateful to have stumbled across your writing and your voice.
Thank you, friend.
What an excellent, poignant essay.
Thank you for reading!
It seems likely that you may already be familiar most/all of the points I make here, but: here's a video of a talk I gave at the parish I served until earlier this year in honor of Pride Month: "What does the Bible Say about LGBTQ People?" I address the 6 common passages that are used by anti-LGBTQ-equality Christians but suggest that none of them warrants such a position. Of course, that doesn't address your broader point above about Scripture's silence on homosexual romance, but I'd still be curious as to what you think.
If you're interested, you can watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4HnaotDpok
Thanks so much! I’ll check it out. Yeah, my position is that it’s just more sensible to say the Bible is wrong and/or silent.
Stephen. Amazing, though-provoking rawness. I’m glad you’re still writing since Gaychristian.com when you and I first met. I’m also glad you’re disciplining yourself to write in the midst of chaos from Helene.
Omg STEPHEN MCALISTER it’s you! So good to hear from you.
Beautifully written. Thank you for writing this, Stephen!
Thank you, friend ❤️
your subtitle … 🔥
Thanks for reading, friend