“The people who self-select to identify with the ultimate rebel and outsider tend towards narcissism and don’t work well together. More broadly, people who self-select to be identified as outsiders will, in my view, have a higher-than-average level of pathology and dysfunction. This might be due to having a greater level of trauma in life, but it might also be due to personality traits that lead one to embrace outsiderdom in the first place.”
This is also the case in Catholicism with many in both the Tridentine Mass crowd and the “Spirit of Vatican II crowd” who both claim to be more Catholic than the Pope, in different ways.
Now, to be fair, I do have dear friends who attend the Tridentine Mass because they like its reverence and aesthetics, but stay away from the toxic “rad-trad”, for lack of a better term, that the Tridentine Mass also attract. I’m not talking about people like my friends who are deferential to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and are the antithesis of pharisaicism: but there is a big crowd of holier-than-thou people who are sourpusses who want to gripe about Vatican II and how awful the post-Vatican II Mass is and complain about the Pope (the theology of the Spirit of Vatican II crowd has the same mindset and mannerisms but is theologically opposite except they agree that Vatican II is a break with the Church’s tradition and look at it through a hermeneutic of rupture rather than the hermeneutic of continuity that Pope St. Paul VI and every single one of his successors say is the correct way of reading and interpreting Vatican II, but I don’t want to go too far out into the weeds here).
All this to say, with a few exceptions who are level-headed people and dear friends of mine, I tend to avoid both these factions in the Catholic Church to the furthest extent possible.
That’s really interesting. I remember encountering some of those people back when I was converting to Catholicism years ago. It’s interesting to note that the same phenomenon I’m describing crops up everywhere.
That was one of the big takeaways for me when I added on a second major in religious studies toward the end of my time in college — we really are all dealing with the same stuff, regardless of the outer trappings.
My last-ditch attempt to stay in Christianity, in the late 2010s, was trying to create a theology centered on the wisdom and needs of child abuse survivors, and perhaps a blueprint of a community of the same. It didn't go anywhere because, #1, the church leadership thought "survivors = crazy and high-maintenance", and #2, people who are healed enough to create a functional community have mostly moved beyond centering their trauma in their identity.
Thanks for your kindness. Like you, I guess I outgrew what brought me to that community in the first place. The Episcopal Church is for good manners, tradition, smells 'n' bells, and a benevolent patriarchal God, all of which I found comforting in my 20s and 30s.
There is an alternate universe where you and I on a Zoom call discussing masculinity in Revolt of the Angels, figuring out how to turn it into a meaningful service. But we don't live in that universe, we live in this one. I feel very lucky to know you in it and appreciate your thoughts that you've shared. One thing I will say is that what was done by so e folks to you, and folks like you, was cruel and unjust. I will do what I can to ensure that culture never returns.
I was only marginally involved with TST for a little while, but my husband was a member and I was/am still connected with many Satanists online, so I got to hear about a lot of the various interpersonal dramas and whatnot that happened. Minneapolis fell apart shortly after we moved to the DC area and got connected with a few TST folks in the area, who were trying to get a new chapter approved. We planned an inauguration protest (Trump's first was a couple weeks after we arrived) and it went on, but husband and I got very weirded out by some of the folks who came and got way too drunk and weirdly authoritative and decided to dip out early. That was basically the end of our involvement. IIIRC, the chapter they were trying to get approved didn't work out, either, in the end.
All that to say that I can understand the more complicated personality conflicts that may have been common over there. Seems like Seattle is similarly struggling, although I don't know details of that one.
Thanks for your openness here! It reminds me I still need to catch up on your prior Satanist pieces.
" Satanism provides a social filter for people with fun-house mirror minds to find each other. We don’t just idolize the same symbol."
This framing did so much heavy lifting for this reader. Well done, Stephen.
"The moment I take on a label, I can no longer look at that label clearly. I now find it best to keep my identity small and to label ideas instead of myself."
Yes. There is no team I feel compelled to join as if wearing their hat would feel satisfying. The opposite, in fact. I would feel like a ball and chain.
This is interesting, thanks, and well-put about the inevitability of dysfunction in communities centred on transgression and outsiderhood. I had my identity wrapped up in being a transgressive artist in my 20s, but it has become clear what a short shelf-life that has for someone who’s willing to grow up eventually. I think of transgression as a healthy emotional response to the horrors of reality, up to a certain age, at which point you should accept that there’s no god-patron who will hear your mewling and capering and rearrange the world, and it’s more important to be decent and efficacious.
I'm an ex-Christian (and former ministerial candidate) historian of religion who has tried to carve out a place in the Unitarian Universalist church.
UU and TST share a similar sacred tension (heh): how to organize a religious community among people who have beef with organized religion.
TST has a distinct aesthetic to attract people. That's something. UU faces the opposite problem. Being eclectic and non-dogmatic, having no single figure or symbol to rally around, the practice can be painfully bland.
But at least the people tend to be compassionate, safe, and socially conscious.
I'm trying to contribute what I can (teaching and singing) while being appreciative of others' gifts. If I don't make it my whole identity, then the flaws I perceive don't seem so important.
(But doesn't it feel good to make religion your whole identity?)
You beat me to it. It's strange how on the surface, UU looks like the anodyne opposite of Satanism, but you could swap in UU for Satanism in this essay and it's basically the story of my twenties.
I've swung back to unchurched Christianity because of the whole "love people unconditionally" bit, I realized there was already basically an app for that. As utterly, fallibly human as any church will be, we've got this couple thousand year old story through which we've plumbed the depths of the struggles and blessings of unconditional love, might as well stay tapped into it.
Can't help but roll my eyes when I see "Satan as the good guy" stories where the premise is, like, what if Satan was sent to hell because he just loved humanity so much? That's not mind-blowing, guys, it's just swapping the names of the protagonist and antagonist. Forget what your fundie churches told you about Jesus, and just go read the story, because that's the basic story! But I also figure Jesus doesn't mind, he's forgiven way worse, do whatever gets you there. ;-)
Thanks for sharing your perspective! A comment on your eye-rolling at the Satanic narrative: while I still find the core literary texts truly beautiful (Paradise Lost, Revolt of the Angels, the poetry of Baudelaire, Las Bas, etc) I get the eye-rolling. Mileage will vary when it comes to Romantic Satanism.
I would be remiss, though, if I didn't point out that it isn't mere name-swapping. The lived implications of the Satanic myth are different from the lived implications of the Christ myth. They overlap but are very different. For example, you don't see the radical individualism in the Christ narrative. The crucifixion and the fall from heaven are only superficially similar, and living them out will have very different consequences. Christ willingly went to his death. Satan, on the other hand, tried to storm God and was cast out against his will. I don't think the mythic Satan would submit to a crucifixion.
Fair. I was speaking more towards various pop culture portrayals I've seen through the years, and the way that some Satanic apologists manage to reinvent Christianity without much self-awareness.
I remember reading Lavey's Satanic Bible back in the day and respecting how well he'd expressed the literal opposite of Christianity. Not every Satanist is just name-swapping!
Yeah, I’d definitely say more recent incarnations of Satanism, including my own work, are closer to Christianity (which I think is to be expected — it came out of Christianity). Even there, though, the lived application of the myth is different. Maybe more of a venn diagram than a circle. I say this having spent six years with Satanists, and even though they were the nice progressive sort of Satanists, they were certainly not Christians in any recognizable way.
Agree completely. And to be really fair: Unconditional love is a great way to end up crucified, and the reams of Christian apologetics trying to avoid that hard truth are probably just as guilty of name-swapping as any reasonably loving Satanist.
Wherever we start out mythologically, we're bound to sand it down into something humanly livable.
Very well said, thanks for sharing. Yeah, symbolism and identity are powerful “social glues.” But they also so often backfire. It’s a challenging balance to strike.
Sending you love....and reminding you that you get to leave the past in the past...of course process what needs to be processed...take from your experience as much wisdom as you can and cast away the rest. YOU GET TO turn over a new leaf. You get to evolve and let that which no longer aligns to fall away....
I love talking about the themes or belonging...I have paused my podcast for a bit but would love a conversation on these themes when the time is right.
Have you ever been to Oregon? The whole western portion of the state (Portland, Eugene, etc.) basically lives out the pathology you have described. In our case, it's not tied to a specific religion -- the underlying Oregon mentality comes in Christian flavors as well as every other flavor imaginable. Many people move here from a more conservative place with the origin story that, once upon a time, at some critical formative moment, someone told them no when they really needed to hear yes. We then spend the rest of everyone's life trying to atone for this primal wound.
That is a great way to word it, escaped from a cult. I love our idealism, but it is absolutely exhausting sometimes. I have had ancestors in Oregon since at least 1903, so I don't have the moved-here-from-wherever-and-need-to-rebel mentality myself; instead, my version of the Oregon problem involves being raised amid the resentful stink of, "Utopia was supposed to be here by now!"
Your article was informative and I am glad that I read it. I was raised as a Catholic Christian and I'm still one today. Your story reminded me of Blessed Bartolo Longo, an Italian man from the 1800s who left the Catholic Church, became a Satanic priest, and then came back to become a monk. His Satanic practice was different than yours, but I still like to think of him as a patron saint of all Satanists (even though he has been beatified and not officially canonized yet). Here is his story:
You mentioned converting to Catholicism in the comments, so I am guessing you are familiar with the concept of patron saints. If not, I can explain it. I will be praying for you sir.
P S. I couldn't help but notice that his last name is almost the same as yours. 😁
“The people who self-select to identify with the ultimate rebel and outsider tend towards narcissism and don’t work well together. More broadly, people who self-select to be identified as outsiders will, in my view, have a higher-than-average level of pathology and dysfunction. This might be due to having a greater level of trauma in life, but it might also be due to personality traits that lead one to embrace outsiderdom in the first place.”
This is also the case in Catholicism with many in both the Tridentine Mass crowd and the “Spirit of Vatican II crowd” who both claim to be more Catholic than the Pope, in different ways.
Now, to be fair, I do have dear friends who attend the Tridentine Mass because they like its reverence and aesthetics, but stay away from the toxic “rad-trad”, for lack of a better term, that the Tridentine Mass also attract. I’m not talking about people like my friends who are deferential to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and are the antithesis of pharisaicism: but there is a big crowd of holier-than-thou people who are sourpusses who want to gripe about Vatican II and how awful the post-Vatican II Mass is and complain about the Pope (the theology of the Spirit of Vatican II crowd has the same mindset and mannerisms but is theologically opposite except they agree that Vatican II is a break with the Church’s tradition and look at it through a hermeneutic of rupture rather than the hermeneutic of continuity that Pope St. Paul VI and every single one of his successors say is the correct way of reading and interpreting Vatican II, but I don’t want to go too far out into the weeds here).
All this to say, with a few exceptions who are level-headed people and dear friends of mine, I tend to avoid both these factions in the Catholic Church to the furthest extent possible.
That’s really interesting. I remember encountering some of those people back when I was converting to Catholicism years ago. It’s interesting to note that the same phenomenon I’m describing crops up everywhere.
That was one of the big takeaways for me when I added on a second major in religious studies toward the end of my time in college — we really are all dealing with the same stuff, regardless of the outer trappings.
My last-ditch attempt to stay in Christianity, in the late 2010s, was trying to create a theology centered on the wisdom and needs of child abuse survivors, and perhaps a blueprint of a community of the same. It didn't go anywhere because, #1, the church leadership thought "survivors = crazy and high-maintenance", and #2, people who are healed enough to create a functional community have mostly moved beyond centering their trauma in their identity.
Thank you for sharing! That sounds like a frustrating experience
Thanks for your kindness. Like you, I guess I outgrew what brought me to that community in the first place. The Episcopal Church is for good manners, tradition, smells 'n' bells, and a benevolent patriarchal God, all of which I found comforting in my 20s and 30s.
Yeah. I tried really hard with the Episcopal Church too. Wonderful people, wonderful liturgy. But it was always just too ... nice?
There is an alternate universe where you and I on a Zoom call discussing masculinity in Revolt of the Angels, figuring out how to turn it into a meaningful service. But we don't live in that universe, we live in this one. I feel very lucky to know you in it and appreciate your thoughts that you've shared. One thing I will say is that what was done by so e folks to you, and folks like you, was cruel and unjust. I will do what I can to ensure that culture never returns.
Oh, and I’m always down to talk about Revolt of the Angels. Still one of the greatest books.
Thank you so much, friend. And don’t be afraid to reach out ❤️
I will do that. I've got 5 or 6 services on want to do on it and I do think you would enjoy a conversation around masculinity in that book.
I was only marginally involved with TST for a little while, but my husband was a member and I was/am still connected with many Satanists online, so I got to hear about a lot of the various interpersonal dramas and whatnot that happened. Minneapolis fell apart shortly after we moved to the DC area and got connected with a few TST folks in the area, who were trying to get a new chapter approved. We planned an inauguration protest (Trump's first was a couple weeks after we arrived) and it went on, but husband and I got very weirded out by some of the folks who came and got way too drunk and weirdly authoritative and decided to dip out early. That was basically the end of our involvement. IIIRC, the chapter they were trying to get approved didn't work out, either, in the end.
All that to say that I can understand the more complicated personality conflicts that may have been common over there. Seems like Seattle is similarly struggling, although I don't know details of that one.
Thanks for your openness here! It reminds me I still need to catch up on your prior Satanist pieces.
Yeah. It’s a hot mess. I’m sorry you had that experience.
I feel the same way after my abrupt departure from TSTWA. Pretty much everything you said resonates with me. Thank you for your essay. Much love.
<3
Thank you for sharing. This is a truly fascinating perspective. I hope you find what you are seeking.
Thanks! I hope the same for you!
" Satanism provides a social filter for people with fun-house mirror minds to find each other. We don’t just idolize the same symbol."
This framing did so much heavy lifting for this reader. Well done, Stephen.
"The moment I take on a label, I can no longer look at that label clearly. I now find it best to keep my identity small and to label ideas instead of myself."
Yes. There is no team I feel compelled to join as if wearing their hat would feel satisfying. The opposite, in fact. I would feel like a ball and chain.
So glad the article was clarifying!
This is interesting, thanks, and well-put about the inevitability of dysfunction in communities centred on transgression and outsiderhood. I had my identity wrapped up in being a transgressive artist in my 20s, but it has become clear what a short shelf-life that has for someone who’s willing to grow up eventually. I think of transgression as a healthy emotional response to the horrors of reality, up to a certain age, at which point you should accept that there’s no god-patron who will hear your mewling and capering and rearrange the world, and it’s more important to be decent and efficacious.
Yes. You can only live on rebellion for so long.
I'm an ex-Christian (and former ministerial candidate) historian of religion who has tried to carve out a place in the Unitarian Universalist church.
UU and TST share a similar sacred tension (heh): how to organize a religious community among people who have beef with organized religion.
TST has a distinct aesthetic to attract people. That's something. UU faces the opposite problem. Being eclectic and non-dogmatic, having no single figure or symbol to rally around, the practice can be painfully bland.
But at least the people tend to be compassionate, safe, and socially conscious.
I'm trying to contribute what I can (teaching and singing) while being appreciative of others' gifts. If I don't make it my whole identity, then the flaws I perceive don't seem so important.
(But doesn't it feel good to make religion your whole identity?)
You beat me to it. It's strange how on the surface, UU looks like the anodyne opposite of Satanism, but you could swap in UU for Satanism in this essay and it's basically the story of my twenties.
I've swung back to unchurched Christianity because of the whole "love people unconditionally" bit, I realized there was already basically an app for that. As utterly, fallibly human as any church will be, we've got this couple thousand year old story through which we've plumbed the depths of the struggles and blessings of unconditional love, might as well stay tapped into it.
Can't help but roll my eyes when I see "Satan as the good guy" stories where the premise is, like, what if Satan was sent to hell because he just loved humanity so much? That's not mind-blowing, guys, it's just swapping the names of the protagonist and antagonist. Forget what your fundie churches told you about Jesus, and just go read the story, because that's the basic story! But I also figure Jesus doesn't mind, he's forgiven way worse, do whatever gets you there. ;-)
Thanks for sharing your perspective! A comment on your eye-rolling at the Satanic narrative: while I still find the core literary texts truly beautiful (Paradise Lost, Revolt of the Angels, the poetry of Baudelaire, Las Bas, etc) I get the eye-rolling. Mileage will vary when it comes to Romantic Satanism.
I would be remiss, though, if I didn't point out that it isn't mere name-swapping. The lived implications of the Satanic myth are different from the lived implications of the Christ myth. They overlap but are very different. For example, you don't see the radical individualism in the Christ narrative. The crucifixion and the fall from heaven are only superficially similar, and living them out will have very different consequences. Christ willingly went to his death. Satan, on the other hand, tried to storm God and was cast out against his will. I don't think the mythic Satan would submit to a crucifixion.
Fair. I was speaking more towards various pop culture portrayals I've seen through the years, and the way that some Satanic apologists manage to reinvent Christianity without much self-awareness.
I remember reading Lavey's Satanic Bible back in the day and respecting how well he'd expressed the literal opposite of Christianity. Not every Satanist is just name-swapping!
Yeah, I’d definitely say more recent incarnations of Satanism, including my own work, are closer to Christianity (which I think is to be expected — it came out of Christianity). Even there, though, the lived application of the myth is different. Maybe more of a venn diagram than a circle. I say this having spent six years with Satanists, and even though they were the nice progressive sort of Satanists, they were certainly not Christians in any recognizable way.
Agree completely. And to be really fair: Unconditional love is a great way to end up crucified, and the reams of Christian apologetics trying to avoid that hard truth are probably just as guilty of name-swapping as any reasonably loving Satanist.
Wherever we start out mythologically, we're bound to sand it down into something humanly livable.
Very well said, thanks for sharing. Yeah, symbolism and identity are powerful “social glues.” But they also so often backfire. It’s a challenging balance to strike.
I think we should make a "Satanic Christians" club! We can can implement the "you can't join us" and be super exclusive! What do you say, Stephen?!
Sending you love....and reminding you that you get to leave the past in the past...of course process what needs to be processed...take from your experience as much wisdom as you can and cast away the rest. YOU GET TO turn over a new leaf. You get to evolve and let that which no longer aligns to fall away....
Thank you. I really appreciate that ❤️
I love talking about the themes or belonging...I have paused my podcast for a bit but would love a conversation on these themes when the time is right.
Always resonating words Stephen! Thank you!
Thank you ❤️
Have you ever been to Oregon? The whole western portion of the state (Portland, Eugene, etc.) basically lives out the pathology you have described. In our case, it's not tied to a specific religion -- the underlying Oregon mentality comes in Christian flavors as well as every other flavor imaginable. Many people move here from a more conservative place with the origin story that, once upon a time, at some critical formative moment, someone told them no when they really needed to hear yes. We then spend the rest of everyone's life trying to atone for this primal wound.
I’ve never been, but I have friends who used to live in Portland and they talk about it as if they’ve escaped a cult, lol
That is a great way to word it, escaped from a cult. I love our idealism, but it is absolutely exhausting sometimes. I have had ancestors in Oregon since at least 1903, so I don't have the moved-here-from-wherever-and-need-to-rebel mentality myself; instead, my version of the Oregon problem involves being raised amid the resentful stink of, "Utopia was supposed to be here by now!"
“Satanists” are boring. I suspect they’ve figured that out now.
Your article was informative and I am glad that I read it. I was raised as a Catholic Christian and I'm still one today. Your story reminded me of Blessed Bartolo Longo, an Italian man from the 1800s who left the Catholic Church, became a Satanic priest, and then came back to become a monk. His Satanic practice was different than yours, but I still like to think of him as a patron saint of all Satanists (even though he has been beatified and not officially canonized yet). Here is his story:
https://www.goodcatholic.com/bartolo-longo-the-satanic-priest-who-became-a-saint/
You mentioned converting to Catholicism in the comments, so I am guessing you are familiar with the concept of patron saints. If not, I can explain it. I will be praying for you sir.
P S. I couldn't help but notice that his last name is almost the same as yours. 😁
Hey, thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed the article, and I appreciate the good will.
I just watched a movie about Jordan Peterson last night! I really enjoyed it. I loved his Maps of Meaning course on Youtube too. https://tubitv.com/movies/517507/the-rise-of-jordan-peterson
Ohh sweet, will check it out.
One other thing...The first Chapter of House of Leaves in audio form. It's always so healing for some reason. "This is not for you." .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpQKQNJ3xng&t=160s