I use to be the intense suppressed emotions type, unable to express them or even authentically articulate them.
To understand a thing is to begin to formulate the means to untangle, unravel or destroy it. What needs to be understood are the narratives of self and other hatred and realizing that even in self deprecation we are simply bolstering a sense of Ego, or the part that compares and contrasts us to anyone else. Self-hatred is a function of self-protection, self-preservation and defiance against all but unfortunately turned against self. True confidence comes from the death of ego, in neither needing nor desiring, nor needing to BE anything in particular. The default state of the organism is pleasurable and pleasant disposition. ALL false selves, especially if they are hurting you, need to fall away to be understood as misguided attempts at achieving the pleasant equanimity you could have if only you let go of everything.
To not desire anything means I approach all seemingly intractible disagreements with loved ones with the very real possibility that I could destroy my relationships with very impactful relationships. I totally let go and let my emotions GUIDE but do not LEAD. I let good faith lead. I let intelligence and communication skills lead, but are true to my emotions and my bona fide intentions and expression of such. If my life is destroyed, then so be it but surprisingly letting go of any particular need for any particular outcome allows me to flow and change and be changed in the relational jiu-jitsu where we bend, pin-in and contort one anothers emotional boundaries JUST SO to inflict minute emotional pains in order to reforge Justice and livable conditions in a relationship.
I have a Post with comments on your Post, the second Part is about Codes of Conduct, Normative Systems, it has nothing to do with Sexuality, but the title and enough context of your post might give a wrong impression. The first part is strictly about your post, but from there I wrote the second part, and the title in the Image for my post is about Normative Systems, Norms, and has nothing absolutely to do with Sexuality, but I can see first hand it can seem that way. It is not, thanks:
I have been thinking about this when it comes to relationships. So, to establish, I think the squaring of the circle in this piece is that masculine vulnerability is "hideous" so often *because* it has been repressed - both in the sense that the feelings have built and warped to an unsustainable place, and in the sense that too often the only education men receive in sharing feelings is "on / off" - there's no intentional education in tact, or time/place, or give/take, or building relationships iteratively. Increasingly, we're failing to educate ANYONE in conflict, and everyone is becoming more avoidant. The result of this is just that men are denied intimacy - "closeness" is just definitionally mutual vulnerability. "The Will To Change" helped me reconceptualize that but I'm having trouble wording it, but just trust me.
The sort of pre-incel state of a lot of boys is a feeling of unfairness and marginalization in matters of emotional sharing and particularly romance. This is, because they are children, often expressed in ways that put the blame on others. I'm thinking of the prototypical "friendzone" complaint - not the ideological version ("Women be friendzonin, which is bad"), the "I'm upset because someone I feel deeply for has told me they don't agree, and it is painful to be reminded that via proximity," (or in the language of a middle schooler, "Why can't she/he like me?") The feedback these boys receive tends not to be, "This is a deeply important feeling that is an integral part of being a person. Can you empathize with the position of the other person and see how they might be hurt or confused, and come to a place of realizing that it's not a matter of right or wrong but of misaligned views of each other and the inevitable pain of love?" It generally is either "You're acting entitled," or "You should act more entitled."
My specific experience is going through basically that gauntlet multiple times through various mixed-gender subcultures, each time recognizing the way girls and women were genuinely harmed and hurt by the actions of boys and men around them, but reacting to that by lopping off any feelings that seemed like they might incidentally cause me to hurt someone. There was never an education in building empathy for myself, or in accepting those feelings so that they could be directed productively, or in the fact that you can feel things that you intellectually disagree with, that "my feelings are valid." Just "on / off."
I'm trying to figure out how to have intimacy in my life now, because I've spent a long time as a sort of inverted image of the toxic masculine.
Inspired by David Brooks suggesting similar for the whole nation in the Atlantic earlier and being an autist lmao. I'll have to look for a group like this!
I’m involved in The Mankind Project. Spun out if the men’s mythopoetic movement, and there’s a lot of woo/ritual that might be a turn off. But what they get right, they get *very* right.
You're right about being told to be honest about emotions, but then rejected when the expressed emotions are considered wrong.
As a straight guy, I'm initially interested in having casual sex with every beautiful girl I see -- so I've trained myself to turn it into a fantasy about my wife (30 years of faithfulness!). But I want more than is reasonably possible, like 200%. In my sixties, my horny mind wants more than my still ok bod can perform. Which I know.
So I sometimes express regret at some of the 100% I don't get, yet my wife is upset about those regrets as if it means the current reality is not enough. This after a few decades of fine love-making and living together well ... but at times I want more. More than is reasonable. She doesn't want to hear it, even when I agree it's unrealistic.
Less problems, better, not to talk about THOSE feelings.
I'm becoming an annoying apostle for this book, but the will to change made me rethink this sort of conflict. It makes perfect sense for her to react as if she has been told she is failing and needs to do more. But it also makes perfect sense for you to have these feelings *while* not thinking of it as her failing, and so to feel chastened by that reaction. The empathy needs to cut both ways.
I'm rambling on your example rather than giving advice. It's just making me think about how true intimacy, in my current thinking, would be a relationship in which the defensiveness could be turned down somehow. To be clear, I have no idea how - my reaction to these issues has just been to never voice desires, which has (it turns out) not been great for relationship building!
My wife is my best friend, but it’s best to censor some. I’m now doing zoom calls with old school friends especially to verbalize some of the not-so Sweet Dreams I have about use & abuse, using & abusing. Mostly not sexual, tho sometimes a bit.
It’s important to be able to vent, to rant about dumb & bad ideas, without killing good feelings… that’s what friends are for!
Especially male friends w/o sexual interest. I avoid too much intimacy with any woman other than my wife (avoiding temptation).
But I suspect almost no woman who I’d like even as just a friend would be able to support my own dark dreams. Tho mine seem far less dark than these you’ve expressed.
Substack writing might be better than getting drunk at a bar and bawling to other drunks about these issues, tho that might also be preferable to being alone & quiet.
What a gorgeous, honest, deep, raw, accurate essay about men in our culture and how we’re confusingly told to be more vulnerable and then slammed when we actually are. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Lot of insight in this essay. Everyone, but especially women, should read this and take heed. I have dealt with many women in the past who wanted to me to be vulnerable only to use it against me when they felt like it.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't is suspiciously like POWER. If you choose either way there is the excuse to have power-over, then use it. Because whatever you do is "wrong" then you submit to the power. Instant slave class! Easy. Works every time.
Only time anyone is mad is when it doesn't work. ...Or when they aren't "intimate" and hand them the ammunition.
As someone who just shared a piece about male vulnerabilty, this was incredibly relatable. To me it seems part of the issue is men lacking experience with expressing their feelings and being gauche, but it's more so your point to how our vulnerability is superficially valued in a society that can't handle its consequences.
This was beautifully done. Thank you for sharing 🙏
Thank you so much for sharing. Agreed. This is why I believe we need to proactively create male spaces that encourage the kind of vulnerability required for healthy men.
The vulnerability is appreciated. While societal expectations for women have evolved much in the past century, the expectations for men have been much slower to change, if at all.
Socially speaking, the worth of a man is tied to what he produces/contributes. His worth is not a given. And so he does not often have the luxury of being emotional or vulnerable. A soft man, or man who displays emotions like sadness, distress or anxiety is largely still largely reviled.
I believe Chris Rock said, "Only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally." Such is our lot.
‘They want something suitable for a rom-com. They want male emotions but tamed, like poodles. They want the show-ready version, groomed and bred into some decorative fluff. They don’t want the wall-punching rage, the terror behind the drug use, the absolute loneliness, the fear that yawns like an abyss.’
Great piece, and this passage reaches the crux of it. It's also been my experience that the demand for emotional vulnerability often comes with the unspoken expectation that it also at least be palatable as well - which, of course, it rarely ever is. Moreover, even a single moment’s weakness can be costly, and I suspect most men know this on an instinctive level.
100%. So true. People (women) often ask for the deepest, the darkest, and then you offer it and you get judged and rejected. I've had the opposite experiences, too, but it has happened too often.
I am not a man, but I am a butch lesbian who passed as a man in society for a time. I relate deeply to what you write here, the emotional expectations even when people relate to you as a “masculine person” and not a man, are crushing. Throughout my life people have expected me to be strong, and punished me for struggling or needing support.
I've always been willing to work through whatever problems male friends or partners of mine have had. I've had relationships with some deeply troubled men. The only thing that has ever made me give up on a man I loved is when his rage and hatred for himself or the world turned into abuse to me. You can cry, you can yell. You can tell me your darkest thoughts and secrets. You can hit the wall. Just don't hit ME.
Stephen, I don't know why your friends hit you in response to you sharing your secrets and struggles, but you didn't deserve that reaction. Or any of those reactions for that matter. I'm deeply sorry.
I still believe there are more people out there who are truly open to men's vulnerability than you may realize. Sadly, I've seen men who won't accept support even when it is offered, and I'm not sure how we fix that together as a society.
There was a man I loved fiercely and wanted to spend my life with and tried so hard to heal, but he angrily rejected every suggestion of resources and professional help I gave, and my compassion and love alone just weren't enough to help him get well. Eventually, as I mentioned previously, he became abusive toward me, and so I felt forced to walk away for my own well-being. It was like he wanted me to hate myself too instead of helping both of us be happier. I guess that behavior isn't exclusive to men. I still see the failure of that love to be one of the greatest tragedies of my life.
There’s a great deal of strength and courage in this post and you should be proud of yourself.
I have scars too. I’ve carried suicidal ideation all through my adult life and it will probably never go away, but I’ve learned to accept it as an impulse I will no longer indulge.
I met a woman who had an incredible heart and could be gentle and kind in the face of my rage. It’s an adjustment for anyone raised in a society where men are expected (required?) to bottle their emotions but she made it.
You can find the people who will let be you be vulnerable and love you for it but it’s a leap of faith. Take care of yourself and thank you for sharing.
Hi Stephen, thank you so much for sharing this part of you. I can feel your strength and deep self-awareness in these words — and the admirable vulnerability that encapsulates both these traits.
I use to be the intense suppressed emotions type, unable to express them or even authentically articulate them.
To understand a thing is to begin to formulate the means to untangle, unravel or destroy it. What needs to be understood are the narratives of self and other hatred and realizing that even in self deprecation we are simply bolstering a sense of Ego, or the part that compares and contrasts us to anyone else. Self-hatred is a function of self-protection, self-preservation and defiance against all but unfortunately turned against self. True confidence comes from the death of ego, in neither needing nor desiring, nor needing to BE anything in particular. The default state of the organism is pleasurable and pleasant disposition. ALL false selves, especially if they are hurting you, need to fall away to be understood as misguided attempts at achieving the pleasant equanimity you could have if only you let go of everything.
To not desire anything means I approach all seemingly intractible disagreements with loved ones with the very real possibility that I could destroy my relationships with very impactful relationships. I totally let go and let my emotions GUIDE but do not LEAD. I let good faith lead. I let intelligence and communication skills lead, but are true to my emotions and my bona fide intentions and expression of such. If my life is destroyed, then so be it but surprisingly letting go of any particular need for any particular outcome allows me to flow and change and be changed in the relational jiu-jitsu where we bend, pin-in and contort one anothers emotional boundaries JUST SO to inflict minute emotional pains in order to reforge Justice and livable conditions in a relationship.
This is not really anything to do with being a man.
You’re just traumatised by your parents.
Suicidal ideation is often when you internalise the murderous intent of your primary care giver.
I hope you don’t have the people who harmed still active in your life. Cast moral judgment and get to safety.
I have a Post with comments on your Post, the second Part is about Codes of Conduct, Normative Systems, it has nothing to do with Sexuality, but the title and enough context of your post might give a wrong impression. The first part is strictly about your post, but from there I wrote the second part, and the title in the Image for my post is about Normative Systems, Norms, and has nothing absolutely to do with Sexuality, but I can see first hand it can seem that way. It is not, thanks:
https://open.substack.com/pub/federicosotodelalba/p/comments-on-what-does-it-feel-like?r=4up0lp&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Really nailed it. Thanks for writing this.
Thank you for reading
I have been thinking about this when it comes to relationships. So, to establish, I think the squaring of the circle in this piece is that masculine vulnerability is "hideous" so often *because* it has been repressed - both in the sense that the feelings have built and warped to an unsustainable place, and in the sense that too often the only education men receive in sharing feelings is "on / off" - there's no intentional education in tact, or time/place, or give/take, or building relationships iteratively. Increasingly, we're failing to educate ANYONE in conflict, and everyone is becoming more avoidant. The result of this is just that men are denied intimacy - "closeness" is just definitionally mutual vulnerability. "The Will To Change" helped me reconceptualize that but I'm having trouble wording it, but just trust me.
The sort of pre-incel state of a lot of boys is a feeling of unfairness and marginalization in matters of emotional sharing and particularly romance. This is, because they are children, often expressed in ways that put the blame on others. I'm thinking of the prototypical "friendzone" complaint - not the ideological version ("Women be friendzonin, which is bad"), the "I'm upset because someone I feel deeply for has told me they don't agree, and it is painful to be reminded that via proximity," (or in the language of a middle schooler, "Why can't she/he like me?") The feedback these boys receive tends not to be, "This is a deeply important feeling that is an integral part of being a person. Can you empathize with the position of the other person and see how they might be hurt or confused, and come to a place of realizing that it's not a matter of right or wrong but of misaligned views of each other and the inevitable pain of love?" It generally is either "You're acting entitled," or "You should act more entitled."
My specific experience is going through basically that gauntlet multiple times through various mixed-gender subcultures, each time recognizing the way girls and women were genuinely harmed and hurt by the actions of boys and men around them, but reacting to that by lopping off any feelings that seemed like they might incidentally cause me to hurt someone. There was never an education in building empathy for myself, or in accepting those feelings so that they could be directed productively, or in the fact that you can feel things that you intellectually disagree with, that "my feelings are valid." Just "on / off."
I'm trying to figure out how to have intimacy in my life now, because I've spent a long time as a sort of inverted image of the toxic masculine.
Very well said.
I’ve recently been involved with a men’s group that teaches these skills, and it’s been incredibly powerful.
Inspired by David Brooks suggesting similar for the whole nation in the Atlantic earlier and being an autist lmao. I'll have to look for a group like this!
I’m involved in The Mankind Project. Spun out if the men’s mythopoetic movement, and there’s a lot of woo/ritual that might be a turn off. But what they get right, they get *very* right.
Cheers, I'll give them a look :)
You're right about being told to be honest about emotions, but then rejected when the expressed emotions are considered wrong.
As a straight guy, I'm initially interested in having casual sex with every beautiful girl I see -- so I've trained myself to turn it into a fantasy about my wife (30 years of faithfulness!). But I want more than is reasonably possible, like 200%. In my sixties, my horny mind wants more than my still ok bod can perform. Which I know.
So I sometimes express regret at some of the 100% I don't get, yet my wife is upset about those regrets as if it means the current reality is not enough. This after a few decades of fine love-making and living together well ... but at times I want more. More than is reasonable. She doesn't want to hear it, even when I agree it's unrealistic.
Less problems, better, not to talk about THOSE feelings.
I'm becoming an annoying apostle for this book, but the will to change made me rethink this sort of conflict. It makes perfect sense for her to react as if she has been told she is failing and needs to do more. But it also makes perfect sense for you to have these feelings *while* not thinking of it as her failing, and so to feel chastened by that reaction. The empathy needs to cut both ways.
I'm rambling on your example rather than giving advice. It's just making me think about how true intimacy, in my current thinking, would be a relationship in which the defensiveness could be turned down somehow. To be clear, I have no idea how - my reaction to these issues has just been to never voice desires, which has (it turns out) not been great for relationship building!
Yes. Thank you so much for sharing. There are times when I think that other men are probably the more appropriate confidants
My wife is my best friend, but it’s best to censor some. I’m now doing zoom calls with old school friends especially to verbalize some of the not-so Sweet Dreams I have about use & abuse, using & abusing. Mostly not sexual, tho sometimes a bit.
It’s important to be able to vent, to rant about dumb & bad ideas, without killing good feelings… that’s what friends are for!
Especially male friends w/o sexual interest. I avoid too much intimacy with any woman other than my wife (avoiding temptation).
But I suspect almost no woman who I’d like even as just a friend would be able to support my own dark dreams. Tho mine seem far less dark than these you’ve expressed.
Substack writing might be better than getting drunk at a bar and bawling to other drunks about these issues, tho that might also be preferable to being alone & quiet.
“They’re sharing a drink they call loneliness,
Well it’s better than drinking alone.”
Billy Joel quite popular in my karaoke habit.
Well said. Male friendship is probably the answer here
What a gorgeous, honest, deep, raw, accurate essay about men in our culture and how we’re confusingly told to be more vulnerable and then slammed when we actually are. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Lot of insight in this essay. Everyone, but especially women, should read this and take heed. I have dealt with many women in the past who wanted to me to be vulnerable only to use it against me when they felt like it.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't is suspiciously like POWER. If you choose either way there is the excuse to have power-over, then use it. Because whatever you do is "wrong" then you submit to the power. Instant slave class! Easy. Works every time.
Only time anyone is mad is when it doesn't work. ...Or when they aren't "intimate" and hand them the ammunition.
Thank you for sharing <3
As someone who just shared a piece about male vulnerabilty, this was incredibly relatable. To me it seems part of the issue is men lacking experience with expressing their feelings and being gauche, but it's more so your point to how our vulnerability is superficially valued in a society that can't handle its consequences.
This was beautifully done. Thank you for sharing 🙏
Thank you so much for sharing. Agreed. This is why I believe we need to proactively create male spaces that encourage the kind of vulnerability required for healthy men.
Great essay. Agree with your assessment.
The vulnerability is appreciated. While societal expectations for women have evolved much in the past century, the expectations for men have been much slower to change, if at all.
Socially speaking, the worth of a man is tied to what he produces/contributes. His worth is not a given. And so he does not often have the luxury of being emotional or vulnerable. A soft man, or man who displays emotions like sadness, distress or anxiety is largely still largely reviled.
I believe Chris Rock said, "Only women, children and dogs are loved unconditionally." Such is our lot.
‘They want something suitable for a rom-com. They want male emotions but tamed, like poodles. They want the show-ready version, groomed and bred into some decorative fluff. They don’t want the wall-punching rage, the terror behind the drug use, the absolute loneliness, the fear that yawns like an abyss.’
Great piece, and this passage reaches the crux of it. It's also been my experience that the demand for emotional vulnerability often comes with the unspoken expectation that it also at least be palatable as well - which, of course, it rarely ever is. Moreover, even a single moment’s weakness can be costly, and I suspect most men know this on an instinctive level.
100%. So true. People (women) often ask for the deepest, the darkest, and then you offer it and you get judged and rejected. I've had the opposite experiences, too, but it has happened too often.
I am not a man, but I am a butch lesbian who passed as a man in society for a time. I relate deeply to what you write here, the emotional expectations even when people relate to you as a “masculine person” and not a man, are crushing. Throughout my life people have expected me to be strong, and punished me for struggling or needing support.
So courageous, beautiful, inspiring — thank you!
I've always been willing to work through whatever problems male friends or partners of mine have had. I've had relationships with some deeply troubled men. The only thing that has ever made me give up on a man I loved is when his rage and hatred for himself or the world turned into abuse to me. You can cry, you can yell. You can tell me your darkest thoughts and secrets. You can hit the wall. Just don't hit ME.
Stephen, I don't know why your friends hit you in response to you sharing your secrets and struggles, but you didn't deserve that reaction. Or any of those reactions for that matter. I'm deeply sorry.
I still believe there are more people out there who are truly open to men's vulnerability than you may realize. Sadly, I've seen men who won't accept support even when it is offered, and I'm not sure how we fix that together as a society.
There was a man I loved fiercely and wanted to spend my life with and tried so hard to heal, but he angrily rejected every suggestion of resources and professional help I gave, and my compassion and love alone just weren't enough to help him get well. Eventually, as I mentioned previously, he became abusive toward me, and so I felt forced to walk away for my own well-being. It was like he wanted me to hate myself too instead of helping both of us be happier. I guess that behavior isn't exclusive to men. I still see the failure of that love to be one of the greatest tragedies of my life.
Wow, that connected! I'm awfully glad you shared that.
I'm also deeply impressed that you were able to write while at a low point.
Thanks so much for reading! Writing is sometimes the *only* thing I’m able to do at a low point
There’s a great deal of strength and courage in this post and you should be proud of yourself.
I have scars too. I’ve carried suicidal ideation all through my adult life and it will probably never go away, but I’ve learned to accept it as an impulse I will no longer indulge.
I met a woman who had an incredible heart and could be gentle and kind in the face of my rage. It’s an adjustment for anyone raised in a society where men are expected (required?) to bottle their emotions but she made it.
You can find the people who will let be you be vulnerable and love you for it but it’s a leap of faith. Take care of yourself and thank you for sharing.
Thank you so much for reading and sharing your experience and encouragement
Just stay out of women's bathrooms and women's sports, will you?
That's literally all we're asking for.
The bare minimum.
And men can't even do that.
you really got to shit on somebody for just sharing their emotions? kind of exactly what this writing was in fear of.
Also your just straight up in the wrong comment section??? This isn't even related
Amen.
Hi Stephen, thank you so much for sharing this part of you. I can feel your strength and deep self-awareness in these words — and the admirable vulnerability that encapsulates both these traits.
You’re awesome. Wishing you all the very best.
Thanks Lukas!