I am very happy you shared this. It is insightful and avoids self pity. I too have only found direction through spirituality—Eastern Orthodox spirituality which incorporates stoic wisdom. It helped me reorient myself again to know in this pain and my limitations that “Even now,” I should ask,” what is wise? What is just? What is courageous? What is compassionate? What is temperate?” One other thing that’s helped me is to not have a self image. If I do the distance between who I feel I should be and what perceive myself to be like now (especially after losing control during an episode) feeds my toxic shame and suicidal thoughts. But if my focus is oriented toward what can I do now to be loving, just, prudent, and wise, it gives me motivation to go against the tide (kind of like act) and do what is necessary rather than what I feel I want and then I don’t end in crises at least as much I used to. I also noticed that me undertaking projects which I invest my self worth in trigger mania, especially when I project some future better self. Thus I try to not have a self image. This advice wasn’t mine but my spiritual fathers. He’s an abbot at a monastery.
I attended my Mormon church today. Trying out going back after having stepped away for 8 years or so, and trying other ways to make sense of life and world. I'm on the verge of going back because I haven't been able to find a community that is as supportive and encouraging of my kids as the local Mormon wards. If I were outside of a Mormon area, I might find other community.
Currently, I am contemplating the link between non-self (anatta) and community: that as I practice and develop samadhi, one of the insights that opens up is that my mind and life are driven more by relationship, belonging, and community, than any real personal actualization or agency. This is a terse overgeneralization, but imma leave it for now.
WorldsArise says the life of the individual is with its communities. We can pursue more individual empowerment and self-actualization, but we will need to find or form a community to tap into in order to do that.
I’d be really, really interested to hear more about this. Mormonism is fascinating, and I’d really love to hear about the experience of returning to your ward.
I'm happy to share in whatever venue you prefer, from private conversation to public podcast. It's deeply personal to me, with not a little fixation/obsession over it.
The almost-paradoxical similarities and inversions of your condition vis-à-vis mine (persistent depressive disorder, AKA dysthymia) strike me in a way I can scarcely describe.
I picture a pair of waves with wildly divergent amplitudes that weave and intersect at a regular beat, passing one another at each point to gain another glimpse into the other world.
The irony is, I started off in a more bipolar-ish manner as a child, likely symptoms of ADHD and Asperger's coupled with anxiety from bullying, and then subsequently flattened by a daily regimen of SSRIs. Hence, to my hypothesis, significantly narrowing my mood amplitude to sacrifice joy in favor of preventing the most unimaginably anguished lows that you describe.
I imagine it's worth pondering, if you haven't already - if there was a drug or other plausible method of eradicating bipolar in exchange for a relatively persistent but generally dull mood...would you take it? Would you leave the devil that you know in hopes of a life that has a chance of at least proving more bearable and less chaotic overall? Or would rather stick with a life that offers the full force of human emotion in all directions, however painful it often is? This can stay rhetorical, if you'd rather.
I ask myself almost daily if I would want to switch toward something more like what you deal with, and I'm trying to recognize how foolish and how much a waste of everything it is to ruminate on that. Deal with the hand I'm dealt and focus on what I can control. The question I asked in my last paragraph arguably shouldn't be asked of anyone to begin with - especially since I have a tendency to cause offense whenever delving into these waters, and am even afraid of doing so right now.
I can see the appeal of stoicism at this point, for sure. I hope its lessons continue to guide you in a more agentic and enlightened direction. You are far from alone, including those of us dealing with very different if still-relatable conditions.
This is a wonderful description and a fantastic question.
I’ve been on meds for about a decade, and they are fortunately very effective in narrowing the peaks. I used to go through an episode once to multiple times a month. Now, it tends to be once every six months to a year. This year, though, has been catastrophic, because of external tumult outside of my control. I don’t remember what my feelings were like off the meds, other than that it drastically reduces the suffering.
I haven’t considered the question because I don’t think I’ve been confronted with that situation yet. I’m pretty pragmatic about all this. Fortunately I respond very well to meds (some I don’t — the ones they tried to put me on earlier this year felt like state sanctioned torture). I don’t feel like they dull my mood, but I also don’t remember what my ambient mood was like before I was on them.
If I had to answer for this very moment, though, I’d say no — I’d rather keep the ups and downs. Ask me when I’m down, though, or in the middle of an episode, and I will probably give you a different answer.
Thanks for sharing this. SSRIs are a big part of my own life narrative. I started them to go through with marriage. I tried repeatedly to wean off of them - I switched brands or dosages - but always went back on them when I started to behave like my own father to my wife and kids.
Over the years, I tried to notice and observe my own behaviors, mental states, and patterns on and off SSRIs. I noticed how it smoothed out highs and lows. I noticed how less emotional I was when I was on them. More stable. Obviously better able to function in relationship, workplace, and society. It was always a more effective solution than doing actual internal work - in the short term. So I continued to sweep issues under the rug for decades until I encountered some health issues potentially related to long-term SSRI use.
When I stopped SSRIs and tried to take on the underlying personality issues that for decades I had been coping with using SSRIs and religious faith/practice, things naturally fell apart. Divorced now, after 23 years and 5 kids, and thanks to the dharma, have found a bit of equanimity regarding it, depending on the day.
Do I regret taking SSRIs and depending on them so much? Do I regret chugging the Mormon kool-aid? Do I regret losing a solid, sensible partner? I love that I can view these things as perceptions that sometimes arise with all the appertaining feels. But I also love that developing samadhi has brough some insight and equanimity with a loosening of so much self - an insight of the "is-ness" of it all.
It is validating to be able to have these kinds of discussions now with others, in spaces like SBL is facilitating🙏. I hope we can integrate or embody something beneficial from these exchanges, to reduce suffering or be of help in some way to us and those we are connected with.
Sure thing, and likewise for sharing yours. I get the sense that these matters are not the kinds of things we have generally felt at liberty to discuss with much of anyone. With my having battled depression resurgence, job loss, and decent probability of divorce, I know that it's a rather consequential thing to say the least. I am nevertheless trying to find the underlying lessons and positives all throughout, for sure. I am really glad you've been able to find some sense of peace in your own journey.
"Mood states feel like alien worlds when you aren’t in them. Not only can you not re-imagine the severity and intensity of the moods, but you also can’t reason how you found your way into them." So true. Surely I would never stick my hand into a toaster on 350 degrees. I'd certainly never crash a wedding reception in a dinosaur costume. Those are crazy things- crazy people do those things. It seems unfathomable except when you're in it. Hopefully you'll find relief soon.
Always insightful. I know that when an addict speaks up about their experience with drug addiction they are risking so much. Risking their reputation, future employment, misunderstanding and still they do it. When I was addicted I would watch their interviews or read their stories and I was so grateful because there's so much shame around addiction (just like mental health discussion). Their voice allowed me to feel less alone and that there were people out there just like me and it really saved me on certain days.
From earlier, we knew that the storms would come. Now that they have arrived (again), I can only stand beside you, from a distance, praying. This path of wisdom, these tasks? May it bring the stability you long for. And may Mercy always meet you.
One good thing about writing one’s thoughts and feelings is it affords one a mirror to see oneself in a line not in a loop. One can see oneself moving, moving away from what has been writing whether it is oppressive thought or painful feelings.
Writing allow one to distance oneself from the thought or feelings and allow oneself the necessary knowledge obtained in the writing to make changes, whatever one needs to change from not going back to thinking the same thoughts, or feeing the same feelings.
One then become convinced that thoughts and feelings are not OF oneself. These are modes of communication one receives or sends. Then one can begin to control them.
Not all thoughts or feelings are one’s own. These thoughts or feelings are form of communications from outside of oneself, if they are not self generated.
Similarly. NOT all the messages in one’s mail inbox are ones own. Most of the messages are messages received. One has the power to blocked messages one does not want to receive. Just like the messages that are receive are not all legitimate, many are spam, scam, phishing, and clickbait. etc. It is up to oneself to choose which to entertain, which to delete or ignore. Messages should not dominate the receiver.
Even if one does not receive a response in posting it online, the thought and feelings had been processed and not anymore staying in a loop.
There is an advantage of posting it online as there are disadvantages.
You already mentioned the risk of posting ones thoughts and feelings online, you did not mention the advantages of doing that.
One advantage is to hear others give feedback to you thoughts. This again it is up to you to decide if the feedback is helpful or not.
Whether the feed back is internal (thoughts or feelings) or external written messages) as reactions to your posr. you are still in control whether to accept them or reject them. You have the mind ,the intellect to guide you which one is true ang which one is not. This is actually the most important filter of thoughts and feeling are they true?
Over time you will realize the thoughts and feeling that had been oppressing and harassing you are lies, that you have accepted are true.
These harassing thoughts and feelings are like blackmails you have to pay over and over with anguish trying to force you to do something you do not want to do, alternating between between feeling good and feelin bad to keep hooked .
Truth does hurt over and over. It hurts to know the truth ONCE but then after it make you happy to know it and release and resolution follows. because you will receive andvexorriencd peace of mind and heart. If it doesn’t give you peace of mind and heart, check again if it is the truth.
Jesus said: “The truth shall set you free.” He is the Truth.
I am very happy you shared this. It is insightful and avoids self pity. I too have only found direction through spirituality—Eastern Orthodox spirituality which incorporates stoic wisdom. It helped me reorient myself again to know in this pain and my limitations that “Even now,” I should ask,” what is wise? What is just? What is courageous? What is compassionate? What is temperate?” One other thing that’s helped me is to not have a self image. If I do the distance between who I feel I should be and what perceive myself to be like now (especially after losing control during an episode) feeds my toxic shame and suicidal thoughts. But if my focus is oriented toward what can I do now to be loving, just, prudent, and wise, it gives me motivation to go against the tide (kind of like act) and do what is necessary rather than what I feel I want and then I don’t end in crises at least as much I used to. I also noticed that me undertaking projects which I invest my self worth in trigger mania, especially when I project some future better self. Thus I try to not have a self image. This advice wasn’t mine but my spiritual fathers. He’s an abbot at a monastery.
Excellent insight re: self-image. I totally agree. Practicing non-self is a powerful antidote to suffering.
You also articulate one reason why the decline of religion/spirituality is concerning — it gives people real wisdom and tools for managing despair.
So here for this.
I attended my Mormon church today. Trying out going back after having stepped away for 8 years or so, and trying other ways to make sense of life and world. I'm on the verge of going back because I haven't been able to find a community that is as supportive and encouraging of my kids as the local Mormon wards. If I were outside of a Mormon area, I might find other community.
Currently, I am contemplating the link between non-self (anatta) and community: that as I practice and develop samadhi, one of the insights that opens up is that my mind and life are driven more by relationship, belonging, and community, than any real personal actualization or agency. This is a terse overgeneralization, but imma leave it for now.
WorldsArise says the life of the individual is with its communities. We can pursue more individual empowerment and self-actualization, but we will need to find or form a community to tap into in order to do that.
I’d be really, really interested to hear more about this. Mormonism is fascinating, and I’d really love to hear about the experience of returning to your ward.
I'm happy to share in whatever venue you prefer, from private conversation to public podcast. It's deeply personal to me, with not a little fixation/obsession over it.
Feel free to DM me! Sadly my podcast is on indefinite hiatus
The almost-paradoxical similarities and inversions of your condition vis-à-vis mine (persistent depressive disorder, AKA dysthymia) strike me in a way I can scarcely describe.
I picture a pair of waves with wildly divergent amplitudes that weave and intersect at a regular beat, passing one another at each point to gain another glimpse into the other world.
The irony is, I started off in a more bipolar-ish manner as a child, likely symptoms of ADHD and Asperger's coupled with anxiety from bullying, and then subsequently flattened by a daily regimen of SSRIs. Hence, to my hypothesis, significantly narrowing my mood amplitude to sacrifice joy in favor of preventing the most unimaginably anguished lows that you describe.
I imagine it's worth pondering, if you haven't already - if there was a drug or other plausible method of eradicating bipolar in exchange for a relatively persistent but generally dull mood...would you take it? Would you leave the devil that you know in hopes of a life that has a chance of at least proving more bearable and less chaotic overall? Or would rather stick with a life that offers the full force of human emotion in all directions, however painful it often is? This can stay rhetorical, if you'd rather.
I ask myself almost daily if I would want to switch toward something more like what you deal with, and I'm trying to recognize how foolish and how much a waste of everything it is to ruminate on that. Deal with the hand I'm dealt and focus on what I can control. The question I asked in my last paragraph arguably shouldn't be asked of anyone to begin with - especially since I have a tendency to cause offense whenever delving into these waters, and am even afraid of doing so right now.
I can see the appeal of stoicism at this point, for sure. I hope its lessons continue to guide you in a more agentic and enlightened direction. You are far from alone, including those of us dealing with very different if still-relatable conditions.
This is a wonderful description and a fantastic question.
I’ve been on meds for about a decade, and they are fortunately very effective in narrowing the peaks. I used to go through an episode once to multiple times a month. Now, it tends to be once every six months to a year. This year, though, has been catastrophic, because of external tumult outside of my control. I don’t remember what my feelings were like off the meds, other than that it drastically reduces the suffering.
I haven’t considered the question because I don’t think I’ve been confronted with that situation yet. I’m pretty pragmatic about all this. Fortunately I respond very well to meds (some I don’t — the ones they tried to put me on earlier this year felt like state sanctioned torture). I don’t feel like they dull my mood, but I also don’t remember what my ambient mood was like before I was on them.
If I had to answer for this very moment, though, I’d say no — I’d rather keep the ups and downs. Ask me when I’m down, though, or in the middle of an episode, and I will probably give you a different answer.
Thanks for sharing this. SSRIs are a big part of my own life narrative. I started them to go through with marriage. I tried repeatedly to wean off of them - I switched brands or dosages - but always went back on them when I started to behave like my own father to my wife and kids.
Over the years, I tried to notice and observe my own behaviors, mental states, and patterns on and off SSRIs. I noticed how it smoothed out highs and lows. I noticed how less emotional I was when I was on them. More stable. Obviously better able to function in relationship, workplace, and society. It was always a more effective solution than doing actual internal work - in the short term. So I continued to sweep issues under the rug for decades until I encountered some health issues potentially related to long-term SSRI use.
When I stopped SSRIs and tried to take on the underlying personality issues that for decades I had been coping with using SSRIs and religious faith/practice, things naturally fell apart. Divorced now, after 23 years and 5 kids, and thanks to the dharma, have found a bit of equanimity regarding it, depending on the day.
Do I regret taking SSRIs and depending on them so much? Do I regret chugging the Mormon kool-aid? Do I regret losing a solid, sensible partner? I love that I can view these things as perceptions that sometimes arise with all the appertaining feels. But I also love that developing samadhi has brough some insight and equanimity with a loosening of so much self - an insight of the "is-ness" of it all.
It is validating to be able to have these kinds of discussions now with others, in spaces like SBL is facilitating🙏. I hope we can integrate or embody something beneficial from these exchanges, to reduce suffering or be of help in some way to us and those we are connected with.
Sure thing, and likewise for sharing yours. I get the sense that these matters are not the kinds of things we have generally felt at liberty to discuss with much of anyone. With my having battled depression resurgence, job loss, and decent probability of divorce, I know that it's a rather consequential thing to say the least. I am nevertheless trying to find the underlying lessons and positives all throughout, for sure. I am really glad you've been able to find some sense of peace in your own journey.
"Mood states feel like alien worlds when you aren’t in them. Not only can you not re-imagine the severity and intensity of the moods, but you also can’t reason how you found your way into them." So true. Surely I would never stick my hand into a toaster on 350 degrees. I'd certainly never crash a wedding reception in a dinosaur costume. Those are crazy things- crazy people do those things. It seems unfathomable except when you're in it. Hopefully you'll find relief soon.
Thank you so much for sharing. Yes, it’s a feeling of shifting between worlds without warning or reason.
Always insightful. I know that when an addict speaks up about their experience with drug addiction they are risking so much. Risking their reputation, future employment, misunderstanding and still they do it. When I was addicted I would watch their interviews or read their stories and I was so grateful because there's so much shame around addiction (just like mental health discussion). Their voice allowed me to feel less alone and that there were people out there just like me and it really saved me on certain days.
From earlier, we knew that the storms would come. Now that they have arrived (again), I can only stand beside you, from a distance, praying. This path of wisdom, these tasks? May it bring the stability you long for. And may Mercy always meet you.
One good thing about writing one’s thoughts and feelings is it affords one a mirror to see oneself in a line not in a loop. One can see oneself moving, moving away from what has been writing whether it is oppressive thought or painful feelings.
Writing allow one to distance oneself from the thought or feelings and allow oneself the necessary knowledge obtained in the writing to make changes, whatever one needs to change from not going back to thinking the same thoughts, or feeing the same feelings.
One then become convinced that thoughts and feelings are not OF oneself. These are modes of communication one receives or sends. Then one can begin to control them.
Not all thoughts or feelings are one’s own. These thoughts or feelings are form of communications from outside of oneself, if they are not self generated.
Similarly. NOT all the messages in one’s mail inbox are ones own. Most of the messages are messages received. One has the power to blocked messages one does not want to receive. Just like the messages that are receive are not all legitimate, many are spam, scam, phishing, and clickbait. etc. It is up to oneself to choose which to entertain, which to delete or ignore. Messages should not dominate the receiver.
Even if one does not receive a response in posting it online, the thought and feelings had been processed and not anymore staying in a loop.
There is an advantage of posting it online as there are disadvantages.
You already mentioned the risk of posting ones thoughts and feelings online, you did not mention the advantages of doing that.
One advantage is to hear others give feedback to you thoughts. This again it is up to you to decide if the feedback is helpful or not.
Whether the feed back is internal (thoughts or feelings) or external written messages) as reactions to your posr. you are still in control whether to accept them or reject them. You have the mind ,the intellect to guide you which one is true ang which one is not. This is actually the most important filter of thoughts and feeling are they true?
Over time you will realize the thoughts and feeling that had been oppressing and harassing you are lies, that you have accepted are true.
These harassing thoughts and feelings are like blackmails you have to pay over and over with anguish trying to force you to do something you do not want to do, alternating between between feeling good and feelin bad to keep hooked .
Truth does hurt over and over. It hurts to know the truth ONCE but then after it make you happy to know it and release and resolution follows. because you will receive andvexorriencd peace of mind and heart. If it doesn’t give you peace of mind and heart, check again if it is the truth.
Jesus said: “The truth shall set you free.” He is the Truth.